TERRY GROSS, HOST:
That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. In the present day, we proceed our archive collection R&B, rockabilly and early rock ‘n’ roll. Earlier than Elvis Presley recorded “Hound Canine,” it was recorded by Massive Mama Thornton. The file’s drummer and producer was Johnny Otis, whose interview we’re that includes at the moment.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “HOUND DOG”)
BIG MAMA THORNTON: (Singing) You ain’t nothing however a hound canine. Been snooping ‘spherical my door. You ain’t nothing however a hound canine. Been snooping ‘spherical my door. You possibly can wag your tail, however I ain’t going to feed you no extra. You instructed me you was excessive class, however I might see by means of that. Sure, you instructed me you was excessive class, however I might see by means of that. And, Daddy, I do know, you ain’t no actual cool cat. You ain’t nothing however a hound canine, been snooping ‘spherical my door. You are simply an previous hound canine. Been snooping ‘spherical my door. You possibly can wag your tail, however I ain’t going to feed you no extra. Oh, play that factor, boy. Oh, pay attention, ain’t that them previous hound canine?
GROSS: Otis was additionally an R&B singer and musician, a band chief, nightclub proprietor and expertise scout. He began out main an enormous band that had the 1945 hit “Harlem Nocturne.” Quickly after, his band, like many of the massive bands, broke up for monetary causes. Otis organized a smaller unit that performed a hybrid of swing and blues that grew to become referred to as Rhythm & Blues. Otis’ Rhythm & Blues Caravan grew to become the primary R&B touring street present. By means of his nightclub, expertise exhibits and street present, Otis found such singers as Esther Phillips, who first labored underneath the title Little Esther, Jackie Wilson, Hank Ballard and Etta James, who we’ll hear from later within the present. Otis had a number of R&B hits within the early ’50s, and in 1958, his file “Willie And The Hand Jive” made it to the highest 10 of the rock ‘n’ roll chart. Though Otis is a pioneer of R&B and performed virtually completely with Black performers, he was a white Greek American who grew up in a Black neighborhood the place his father ran a grocery retailer. In the course of the British invasion of the ’60s, his model of music grew to become decreasingly unpopular. Otis died in 2012 on the age of 90. Once I spoke with him in 1989, he was again on the street and within the recording studio. His classes from the Nineteen Fifties had simply been reissued. We started along with his first hit – that 1945 instrumental recording of “Harlem Nocturne.”
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: There’s an amazing story behind recording this file. Would you inform it?
JOHNNY OTIS: Nicely, this goes again to the mid ’40s, and it was my first file date with my very own band, as I recall. And we did three issues. I went to the producer after we had accomplished the third one and I stated, effectively, Mr. Renee (ph), that is it. Three songs in 4 hours, and we bought loads of time left. He stated, no, you have bought that improper. It is 4 songs in three hours. Now, get on the market and get one other music collectively. So, we had been – the home band on the Membership Alabam on Central Avenue right here in LA on the time, and I keep in mind once we would play this explicit music, the refrain women and the present women would come out of the – out of their dressing rooms and dance on the balcony, and they’d all the time ask us to play it. And I believed it should have some attraction if the women prefer it that effectively. So I stated, let’s play that. And it was a inventory association that had been recorded as soon as earlier than by Ray Noble and an Earle Hagen tune. So – however I slowed it down, and I used to be a drummer then. I then went, growth, growth, growth on the tom toms, and we recorded it. And the songs that we had performed beforehand with Jimmy Speeding, the nice Depend Basie singer, and a few great preparations, they did not do it, however “Harlem Nocturne” grew to become an on the spot hit.
GROSS: And when “Harlem Nocturne” grew to become an on the spot hit, then you definately began touring with Louis Jordan and with The Ink Spots. And so they had been among the greatest Black acts of the time. Are you able to describe just a little bit what the ambiance was like on the concert events through which you shared the invoice?
OTIS: That very same feeling you are feeling the day earlier than the curtain opens, that nice anticipation, they are going to see Invoice Kenny and The Ink Spots. They’ll see Louis Jordan. And we had been fortunate sufficient to be the band.
GROSS: Did the audiences assume that you simply had been Black?
OTIS: After all. In these days, most of the locations we performed, had they suspected I used to be white, we might have been arrested.
GROSS: Nicely, I keep in mind once I interviewed Solomon Burke, he instructed a narrative about how when one in all his information crossed over to the nation charts, he began getting invites to play sure locations within the South with white crowds who would have by no means requested him to play in the event that they knew he was Black, and he confirmed as much as one in all these locations, and it was fairly a scene. Did something comparable ever occur to you?
OTIS: No. We’re speaking now, I assume we’re again within the ’40s. If we’re, it was a lot completely different than the Solomon Burke days of the ’50s or the ’60s with Solomon Burke. You see, your life was on the road in these days. When our bus would cross the Mason-Dixon line, and the motive force would say, effectively, we simply crossed the Mason-Dixon line, a pall would fall over your entire present. We would all get quiet as a result of we knew we had been down there the place we had issues. And lots of instances, we got here near being harm. One time we stopped the bus to go to get some gasoline, and my little singer, Little Esther, who was solely 13, jumped off and went to the restroom. And I seemed up, and there is a man with a gun in my stomach. And he is shaking and he is all excited as a result of the little Black woman went to the white lady’s toilet. And I believed to myself, any demise however this. So she got here out, and we went on down the street. However these issues occurred to us on a regular basis. That was the open model of white racism as in opposition to the very delicate, pervasive and institutionalized model that we’ve got at the moment.
GROSS: Let me play one of many rhythm and blues information from the interval that you simply made. And this was with the singer Little Esther, who we now know as Esther Phillips. And this was “Double Crossing Blues.” Do you wish to say something about this? Did you write this music?
OTIS: Nicely, I may give you just a little anecdote about it.
GROSS: Yeah.
OTIS: I used to be leaving my little hen ranch in Watts, again within the ’40s, and with me had been a gaggle of fellows I had discovered on the Barrelhouse, the place – I had a nightclub there referred to as the Barrelhouse. And we had been going to do their first file, they usually grew to become referred to as The Robins and later The Coasters. However Little Esther was a neighborhood little woman who used to assist me, with the opposite kids, catch my chickens when individuals would pick the hen they wished. After which we might have refreshments later. And she or he ran and she or he stated, Johnny, let me go. Let me go. So I stated, oh, get in. So she bought in. We went to Hollywood to the studio. And once we bought there, we did the 4 sides by The Robins, and we had a couple of minutes left. So I instructed – I requested the producer, Ralph Bass. I stated, man, we bought a while. Let me get these children collectively. I bought a music I believe would make sense. He stated, effectively, hurry up. You have solely bought a few minutes. So we – I taught it to him, and we did it, and it was referred to as “Double Crossing Blues.” And he stated – I stated, can I do it yet one more time ‘trigger she sort of giggled. He stated, no, that is it. However anyhow, that grew to become the No. 1 music of 1950. And it introduced Little Esther to stardom, and it did an terrible lot for us, too.
GROSS: And also you’re taking part in vibes.
OTIS: Yeah, and I am taking part in vibes.
GROSS: OK, right here we go.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “DOUBLE CROSSING BLUES”)
ESTHER PHILLIPS: (Singing) I have been on the lookout for you, Daddy. I simply discovered you in time. You are with another lady, and also you swore that you’re mine. What is the matter, Daddy? Do not my kisses fulfill? Nicely, if I do not thrill you child, goodness is aware of how exhausting I’ve tried. People say that you’ve got been dishonest, and now I see it is true. Nicely, I am unable to give up you child ‘trigger I am so in love with you. What is the matter, Daddy? In the event you’d solely inform me why. Nicely, if I do not thrill you child, goodness is aware of how I’ve tried.
BOBBY NUNN: (Singing) You stayed out final night time, stated you had been taking part in playing cards. Cannot perceive it child, simply what makes you play so exhausting. I am gonna depart you.
GROSS: Johnny Otis is my visitor, and by the way in which, he has a brand new album of a few of his reissued recordings from the Nineteen Fifties. It is referred to as “The Capitol Years.” We’ll be listening to a few of that in just a bit whereas. You found a variety of expertise, not only a Little Esther, Esther Phillips. What was your manner of scouting for individuals?
OTIS: Truly, my first singer was Ernestine Anderson when she was just a bit woman.
GROSS: Actually?
OTIS: Then – yeah. After which got here Esther Phillips. However after Esther Phillips’ superb success and have become the massive youngster star of the African American group nationally, then all over the place we performed, individuals – they’d convey me their sons and their daughters backstage. I suppose they figured I used to be an professional who knew methods to make stars out of children. And that is the way it began.
In the future in Detroit on the Paradise Theater, I requested the supervisor. I stated, throughout this week that we’ll be right here, how about me doing a expertise present to keep away from having to have all these individuals coming round with their children? He stated, nice. And we did. It was to have been one hour, nevertheless it stretched into two hours. And we discovered so many great singers and gamers that day. I discovered Little Willie John, Jackie Wilson and Hank Ballard and the Midnighters on that specific present. And there have been most likely others, however the file firm I used to be scouting for – King – solely wished to cope with three in the mean time. And I believed years later, when Berry Gordy shaped his nice “Motown Story,” I stated, no marvel. Have a look at the reservoir of expertise right here in Detroit.
GROSS: It should have been humorous, although, when the dad and mom had been bringing you their kids. It’s essential to have been uncovered to a variety of actually untalented children additionally.
OTIS: Nicely, I discovered fast. They’d come and say – they usually virtually all had precisely – I do not care if I used to be in Mississippi or Massachusetts. They’d say, Now, Mr. Otis, we all know that you already know. And if Junior has any actual expertise, you may inform us the reality. And if he would not, after all – however they did not imply that. I did not realize it. What they meant was, that is the world’s reply to the nice youngster star. That is it. And if I might dare to counsel they weren’t, then I had an enemy on my arms. So I discovered methods to sidestep that and inform little fibs.
GROSS: We’re listening again to my 1989 interview with the late Johnny Otis. We’ll hear extra of the interview after a break. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my 1989 interview with the late Johnny Otis, an R&B musician, producer, nightclub proprietor and expertise scout who found Massive Mama Thornton, Esther Phillips, Jackie Wilson and Etta James, who we’ll hear from later.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: We have been speaking about rhythm and blues. When there was the transition between rhythm and blues and rock and roll, did you need to – did you end up altering the music, or had been, perhaps, the audiences altering that you simply had been taking part in your music to?
OTIS: Yeah, that is true. Once I was coping with the traditional rhythm and blues that we developed again within the ’40s, we did a variety of bluesy materials as a result of the Black viewers demanded it. Because the transition occurred and because it developed, we then needed to play extra animated soar blues, boogie kinds and act – placed on an act for white people, as a result of they wished it to be – they wished to see us, you already know, work and sweat. And that is what they preferred.
The early Black audiences wished a extra musical, bluesy jazz factor. The white audiences wished that soar tune, boogie-woogie sort of factor.
GROSS: Nicely, I wish to play a music that you simply had that was successful on the rock ‘n’ roll charts in 1958, and that is “Willie And The Hand Jive.” Let’s play it, after which we’ll discuss it.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “WILLIE AND THE HAND JIVE”)
OTIS: (Singing) I do know a cat named Manner Out Willie. He bought a cool little chick named Rockin’ Millie. He can stroll and stroll and Susie Q and do this loopy hand jive, too. Papa instructed Willie, you may spoil my house. You and that hand jive has bought to go. Willie stated, Papa, do not put me down. They’re doing that hand jive throughout city. Hand jive, hand jive, hand jive, doing that loopy hand jive. Mama, mama, have a look at Uncle Joe.
GROSS: That is “Hand Jive,” which was an enormous hit for my visitor, Johnny Otis, again in 1958. Inform me about scripting this music.
OTIS: My supervisor, the late Hal Zeiger and companion, again at the moment, we had successful in ’57 referred to as “Ma, He is Making Eyes At Me” with the nice Marie Adams singing, and it grew to become successful, not right here within the States, however in Europe and England, it was No. 1. So he went over to arrange the tour, and when he bought again, he stated, pay attention, I noticed one thing attention-grabbing.
I noticed the younger individuals across the London space within the venues the place they could not dance, on the concert events and the theaters. As they sat there, they’d do a factor that you simply guys within the massive Black bands used to do with their arms, you already know, whereas the band was taking part in. And so they name it hand jive. Why do not you write a music referred to as “Hand Jive” and perhaps we’ll do some good over in Europe? Nicely, I did, and it – fortunately, it grew to become successful all over the place.
GROSS: So the hand jive was a – principally, simply sort of clapping and shifting your arms…
OTIS: Yeah, whilst you’re sitting.
GROSS: …Whilst you’re sitting, in a dance-like model…
OTIS: Nicely, it grew to become a complete dance later (laughter).
GROSS: I wish to play one thing that you simply’re featured on from this new re-issue referred to as “The Capitol Years.” And that is “Cannot You Hear Me Calling.”
OTIS: OK.
GROSS: And also you’re singing on this?
OTIS: Yeah.
GROSS: And what do you play?
OTIS: After a vogue (laughter).
GROSS: Oh, you sound actually good on it.
OTIS: Oh, effectively, OK. You and my mom assume so.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: OK. Nicely, let’s give it a pay attention.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “CAN’T YOU HEAR ME CALLING”)
OTIS: (Singing) Cannot you hear me calling, babe.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Babe.
OTIS: (Singing) Babe.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Babe.
OTIS: (Singing) Babe. Child, please, do not go.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Child, please do not go.
OTIS: (Singing) Child, do not you already know I like…
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Love.
OTIS: (Singing) I like…
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Love.
OTIS: (Singing) I like…
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Love.
OTIS: (Singing) …I like you so.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) I like you so.
OTIS: (Singing) Now you bought me on their own, alone and blue. And I am sitting right here crying over you. Cannot you hear me calling, child, child, please, do not go.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Do not go, do not go.
OTIS: (Singing) Cannot you hear me calling. I…
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) I.
OTIS: (Singing) I…
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) I.
OTIS: (Singing) I…
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) I.
OTIS: (Singing) …I am unable to go on.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) I am unable to go on.
OTIS: (Singing) And now you already know you bought me crying.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Crying.
OTIS: (Singing) I am crying.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Crying.
OTIS: (Singing) I am crying. I am on their own.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) I am on their own.
OTIS: (Singing) Come on, child, will not you inform me that you simply coming house. You do not wish to depart me crying right here on their own. Cannot you hear me calling, child, child, please do not go.
UNIDENTIFIED SINGERS: (Singing) Do not go, do not go.
OTIS: (Singing) Within the morning…
GROSS: Johnny Otis from the brand new album “The Capitol Years.” You already know, Ben Vaughan wrote the liner notes for this file and in it he mentions that in one in all – I suppose it was a publicity shot – that your goatee was airbrushed out so that you’d look much less ethnic? What was the story behind that?
OTIS: (Laughter) Oh, Hal Zeiger, the late Hal Zeiger, God relaxation his soul. He was my companion on the time and he did these items with out even asking me. Nicely, you already know, he wished me to look much less Black. He wished me to look much less like a Greek. He wished me to appear like a pleasant Anglo-Saxon WASP, which is difficult to do. However he tried.
GROSS: So he airbrushed out the goatee.
OTIS: Yeah (laughter). I do not assume that bought any information (laughter).
GROSS: Now, your loved ones is Greek? Was Greek?
OTIS: Yeah.
GROSS: Your dad and mom?
OTIS: Yeah.
GROSS: And…
OTIS: Yeah. Have been and are. Sure.
GROSS: …And your final title was Veliotes?
OTIS: Veliotes.
GROSS: And when did you alter it to Otis?
OTIS: The children at college sort of made that call for me. They determined to not cope with attempt to keep in mind methods to pronounce that. They’d say, Johnny Otis. And that is the way in which it caught.
GROSS: So, I do know that your father had a grocery retailer. Was that in the identical neighborhood that you simply lived in?
OTIS: Oh, sure. The grocery retailer was downstairs and we lived upstairs.
GROSS: And this was in a Black neighborhood?
OTIS: Sure. Within the coronary heart of the Black neighborhood.
GROSS: In order that, I suppose, helps clarify why you grew up with such Black identification.
OTIS: It is also the luckiest factor that ever occurred to me.
GROSS: So…
OTIS: He may, actually, have put it in a WASP neighborhood. Then what would have occurred to me?
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Did you not consider your self as being white whenever you had been rising up?
OTIS: I did not take into consideration that in any respect. I had no idea about that. Fortunately, my father was completely great in that respect. And my playmates had been – I did not realize it then, however they had been Black, African American. I believed we had been all the identical factor. And I do not assume it is so distinctive in America for white children to develop up with Black kids and are available up collectively as brothers and sisters.
What is likely to be distinctive is to not veer away. I couldn’t veer away as a result of that is the place I wished to be. These had been my mates. That is what I beloved. Wasn’t the music that introduced me to the Black group. It was the lifestyle. I felt I used to be Black.
GROSS: What was it in regards to the lifestyle?
OTIS: Every little thing about it. You already know, completely different cultures have completely different traits, and the traits of the African American group grew to become my very own. And I simply wasn’t prepared to provide that up, to go develop into a part of the mainstream group the place individuals felt superior to Black individuals, they usually oppressed Black individuals they usually practiced democracy and preached racism.
I did not wish to be a part of that. I wish to keep in that candy, lovely Black place within the Black group.
GROSS: My interview with Johnny Otis was recorded in 1989. He died in 2012 on the age of 90. After we take a brief break, we’ll hear from one of many singers he found, Etta James. I am Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE WALLFLOWER”)
RICHARD BERRY: (Singing) Hey, child. What do I’ve to do to make you’re keen on me, too?
ETTA JAMES: (Singing) You bought to roll with me, Henry.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE ROLLING STONES’ “NOW I’VE GOT A WITNESS”)
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